Kate Carroll de Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nBoth fiction and nonfiction are writing towards truth, but nonfiction writers are constrained by a \u2018box of facts\u2019 that they have to work within to get to the truth. I don\u2019t make any composite characters in there. I don\u2019t compress the timeline. I leave things out of the timeline obviously, but I don\u2019t compress it as if \u2018this all happened in one year\u2019 kind of thing. Because I\u2019m a real believer in facts. That\u2019s why we read nonfiction, because we\u2019re interested in the facts of someone\u2019s life.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t think it\u2019s that hard to hew to fact and still get to some truth. I think you have to think awfully hard about it. How do you get there?\u00a0And like you said, you have to bust through your own denial. What does that really mean?\u00a0 You have to bust through your anger and your pain and your shame. All of that.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nTFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nSomething I keep running into is that in my own mind, some memories have morphed and merged, and I realize that couldn\u2019t have happened that year. We didn\u2019t live in that house when she was that old, or whatever . . . What do you do with things like that?<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nDe Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nI think you tell your reader. There\u2019s a phrase that I use a lot in that book [Objects in Mirror Are Closer Than They Appear<\/em>], which is, \u201cBut that isn\u2019t exactly true,\u201d or \u201cBut that can\u2019t be true, because we didn\u2019t live in that house then.\u201d And sometimes I interrogate myself on the page. Is this true?<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
There\u2019s an essay in the book about my dad in the Navy. I had to do a ton of research for that. I got my dad\u2019s Naval records. I talked to people that he was in the Association of Naval Aviators with. You know, my mom had Alzheimer\u2019s, so I couldn\u2019t trust her memory. She said, \u201cYour dad wasn\u2019t an aviator.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, he was. He had his wings.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And she says, \u201cYeah, he just had those. He wasn\u2019t an aviator.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
\u201cBut he was in the Association of Naval Aviators.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
She said, \u201cNo. They let anybody in.\u201d<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nTFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nReally? Can I get in?<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nDe Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nYes! It turns out they do<\/em> let anybody in, but it also turns out my father had his wings.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
I have a new essay I\u2019m working on. I inherited the kitchen table that I grew up with, and it was, I thought, my grandparents\u2019. My mom said, \u201cOh, no. That was your great-grandparents\u2019.”<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And my sisters and I were like, \u201cYou have Alzheimer\u2019s.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
This table always squeaked, and I sent it out to be repaired, to be re-glued and all of that and when the guy came to pick it up he was like, \u201cOh, wow! This table\u2019s a hundred and thirty years old, at least!\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
We\u2019d totally dismissed Mom. So, I think those are important things to tell a reader. I\u2019d completely dismissed my mother, and it turns out this was true.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nTFR<\/em>:\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nI sometimes feel dismissed by my family that way, because I\u2019m known for having kind of a wonky memory. So even when I\u2019m sure I absolutely know something to be true, if they have any doubt, they just assume I\u2019m the one who remembered it wrong. That\u2019s something that I struggle with in trying to write my story. So I just think out loud on the page?<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nDe Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nThink out loud on the page, and also you have to remember that everybody has a different memory. You know, you\u2019ll remember one thing from this meeting and I\u2019ll remember another. It\u2019s like the old car accident scene, right? Six people watch a car accident, and everybody has a different story about what happened.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
That is the tricky part of memoir and that\u2019s why, in my opinion, you always have to alert your reader. Like, \u201cI\u2019m imagining this. I don\u2019t know this to be true. I think perhaps it happened this way.\u201d I think an honest memoir writer will always alert their reader to the fact that they don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
You know, my siblings remember this differently.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong>
\nDid you get a lot of push back from them?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nNone, which I find fascinating. My dad had died by the time I finished the draft of the thesis. My mom read it. The original thesis was very different with a different ending. Her only comment was, \u201cI don\u2019t look very nice in this.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I said to her what I think you should say to your family, which is, \u201cMom, these are just my<\/em> memories, and they\u2019re just the memories I chose to put down. It\u2019s not the whole story.\u201d When you\u2019re writing about people, it\u2019s hard.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
You know, it\u2019s like, No, I\u2019m imposing a narrative structure. It\u2019s okay<\/em>, but people who aren\u2019t writers don\u2019t understand that.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nYou mention in your book the generosity of your ex-wife and her current spouse in allowing you to tell your version of what happened. Did they know you were writing Objects<\/em> as you were writing it, or only after you finished?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nMy ex-wife definitely knew because we divorced while I was in graduate school. We were together twenty-four years so we had a lot of years of both reading together and talking about writing. I gave her the whole manuscript, and I said if there\u2019s anything you object to let\u2019s talk about it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And she said, \u201cI\u2019m not even going to read it right now, because it\u2019s your story. You tell it.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
You know, really gracious. She came to the book awards. She\u2019s an amazing individual. And even her current partner, he\u2019s like, \u201cI hear I show up in the book. Do I get royalties?\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I\u2019m said, \u201cIf you sell five thousand copies, I will send you on a cruise!\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
He\u2019s like, \u201cAll right, I\u2019m working on it.\u201d He\u2019s a really good guy.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nIf it hadn\u2019t gone that way, if they\u2019d been resistant or really upset with something you\u2019d written, how would you have handled that?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nWhat do you do?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nYes. Would you have gone ahead? Would you have abandoned the project?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nWell, that\u2019s a great question. It\u2019s a hypothetical, but I\u2019m always open to change, you know? I\u2019m sure you found my blog, which is actually becoming a book [The Authenticity Experiment<\/em>]. I write about the people in my life. They all have nicknames, but my siblings were really upset about one of the posts.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
And they said, \u201cIf you\u2019re going to write about us, could you tell us and we could read it first?\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I said, \u201cSure.\u201d And I actually changed a post for them. It was a simple change.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I think had my ex-wife been very upset about that I would have considered making changes. I would have considered cutting. As it was, you don\u2019t know what happened in my marriage. That\u2019s the biggest question I get from readers, \u201cI don\u2019t understand. What happened in your marriage?\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And I say, \u201cThat\u2019s between me and my ex-wife.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I hope I\u2019ve told enough of the story that you\u2019re engaged and it\u2019s not tell-all. Nobody wants a confessional memoir, I don\u2019t think. Read the National Enquirer<\/em> for that.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nI have a blended family, so there are always these undercurrents of emotional stepfamily stuff going on. I\u2019m trying to honor each of those stories that overlap my own, but it\u2019s really difficult to tease apart and still tell a whole story. You talk about nonfiction writers being constrained by a \u2018box of facts.\u2019 So you use nicknames. That\u2019s not something I\u2019ve thought of trying, but they\u2019d still know who they were in the book.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:\u00a0 \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nRight, they know who they are. I write about so many people on the blog and they didn\u2019t sign up to be friends with, or to love a nonfiction writer, so you know . . . nicknames work for them. And some people I don\u2019t name at all.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
The post that just went up, my two friends that I was with, I didn\u2019t name them. They both contacted me and said, \u201cThat was such a great post and I\u2019d forgotten that happened. Thank you for that great post.\u201d Neither one said, \u2018Thank you for not naming me,\u201d but I\u2019m careful with people.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And I think with your blended family, again, you still have to tell your<\/em> story. It\u2019s your experience of the step-kids coming in and blending them with your own children. And is all of that germane? That\u2019s the question I ask myself, too. I write it all down. You know, I write hundreds of pages to get ten. I\u2019m sure you do the same.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: \u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nYes. There\u2019s a scene that I have written again and again and again. I just can\u2019t get it right. Part of the problem is revealing another kid\u2019s personal crisis that was occurring in the same time frame as the event I need to write. That scene is crucial to the story, but difficult to write without exposing a painful time for our family that really isn\u2019t relevant to the story I want to tell. Recently, I started over. Stopped trying to revise what I had already written and just started all over. This time I put everybody\u2019s names in it, everything.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nGood.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nAnd now I\u2019ll go back and revise again, but what do you advise in a situation where two stories are so tangled together?<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nDe Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nWell, the reality is it\u2019s your story about it, so you don\u2019t necessarily have to get their blessing. Right?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: \u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nThat\u2019s what I keep going back and forth about. I think of Anne Lamott who says that if people wanted you to write nice things about them, they should have behaved better.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nRight! Exactly, exactly! Anne Lamott will also tell you that she changes people. She uses composite characters sometimes.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nBut you don\u2019t feel comfortable doing that yourself.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nDe Gutes: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nI don\u2019t. I think it\u2019s wrong. I really do. I do feel comfortable, like on the blog, giving nicknames and I also know there are some stories I can\u2019t ever tell. There are stories I\u2019ll never tell except for\u2014you know\u2014like sitting here I might tell you a story, but I\u2019ll never write it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
But you\u2019ve got to write this one.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: \u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nI can\u2019t see the story without it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nSo I think if I were to give you any advice, I would say try writing it from a different point of view. Try writing it in third person. Try writing it in second person.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nI noticed that you use second person quite a lot, and it\u2019s so powerful.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nIt is. And it\u2019s a great way to approach a scary topic. So is third person. She could tell you there were many times when she saw what was true, but chose to deny it.<\/em> You know, that kind of thing, right? It\u2019s fascinating what a change in point-of-view will do for a story. Another thing is try writing in future perfect. Using second person or third person, you know. She will tell you in 2017 that . . .<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: \u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nI like that approach. I haven\u2019t seen that in other memoirs. That\u2019s something you did in this book that really caught my attention, that I really found to be very powerful.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 <\/strong><\/p>\nIt happened by surprise. It happened because something was out of the timeline, and I thought, I\u2019ve got to make this work. Oh, I\u2019ve got to change the tense. Oh, and it\u2019s got to be future perfect.<\/em> And there\u2019s one other one that\u2019s future conditional.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nFuture conditional. I must admit I don\u2019t remember exactly what that means. [Laughs.]<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: <\/strong><\/p>\nMe too. I didn\u2019t know what to call it. There\u2019s a great book that I always refer to called Artful Sentences: Syntax as Style<\/em> by Virginia Tuft. It\u2019s just fantastic. It\u2019s so helpful in these situations.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nYou shift those tenses throughout the book. And I guess in my head I thought that was \u2018against the rules\u2019 until I read Objects<\/em>.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nFuck the rules, right?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nSome of your chapters are really short. It makes me wonder about how I might use little snippets of my own that haven\u2019t grown into anything bigger.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: <\/strong><\/p>\nWell, you might think about juxtaposition and how you can bump some things up against one another, because they inform each other. But sometimes a really short piece just works.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I\u2019m also a big proponent of if you\u2019re just writing a scene and it\u2019s powerful and it stands on its own, then okay. I\u2019m also a big believer in doing what works for you. Judith (Kitchen) was a big believer in working with your weaknesses. So you want to tie it up tidy, and she\u2019s like, \u201cLife isn\u2019t tidy. Let\u2019s work with that, you know?\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Your weakness is that you want to tie everything up. Let\u2019s leave it untied. See what happens. I think it\u2019s human nature to want to tie it all up, but you can\u2019t.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nI think for me the trick is giving the reader a bit more trust to make their own meaning out of things instead of trying to tell them what I think it means.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes<\/strong>:<\/p>\nRight, and you never know what your readers are going to bring to the page anyway. \u00a0I\u2019m stunned when somebody tells me what they see and I think, Well, you\u2019re right, but I wasn\u2019t thinking that. I never saw that.<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nHave you had anyone write a review of your book that you really disagreed with?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nNo. I\u2019ve been so lucky that I have only gotten good reviews. At least, the published reviews. There are a few on Amazon and Goodreads that . . . well, there are\u00a0trolls out there. But no, I have been so, so lucky that my written reviews have all been good, and I\u2019m really grateful for that because I know I would be kind of devastated.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>:<\/strong><\/p>\nIt\u2019s tough to put yourself out there. I think most writers are introverts.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nRight, and sensitive little beings!<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nDo you have a workshop group, a list of first readers? How do you keep yourself moving forward?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: <\/strong><\/p>\nI keep myself moving forward because I\u2019m just ridiculously driven, so there\u2019s that. I\u2019m always writing. I always have a journal with me. I\u2019m constantly working on something that may turn into something and may not. Like I said, I write a hundred pages to get ten.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I do all my work longhand and then type it. I have a great group of first readers that I went through graduate school with and they\u2019re all thanked in the book\u2014Cynthia Stewart Renee, Judith Pullman\u2014and they\u2019ll read anything for me, anytime. I\u2019ll be on a deadline for something, it\u2019ll be totally last minute, and I\u2019ll ask, \u201cDoes anyone have time to take a look at this for me?\u201d And they will. We do that for each other, and so they\u2019re great first readers for me.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I have another friend who is a singer\/songwriter, a storyteller, and she gives me a different kind of feedback. She\u2019s like, \u201cYou need to take me right into the story here. I wanted to go right into the story. And I wanted to know what the cigarette smoke did to your nostrils. Did you sneeze? Did it make your eyes itch?\u201d You know, things that other people don\u2019t notice. Songwriters notice all these physical details.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nI wondered if there are any other writers in your family.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes: <\/strong><\/p>\nNone. Well, my grandmother\u2019s sister, my great-aunt Bobbi. She was a writer.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nDid she have any impact or influence on your decision to go into this field?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nNo. she died before I was born. I\u2019ve always written. I wrote as a young kid even. It\u2019s in my blood. Music and writing.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nAnd why journalism first? Over fiction or other genres, what took you there?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nWell, you\u2019ve got to make a living. Right? I don\u2019t make a living with this\u2014teaching and selling books does not provide what I want. So, I ghost-write magazine articles and e-books and blog posts and thought leadership pieces for technology executives.\u00a0 It works. It\u2019s a little draining, like I\u2019ve got to leave here and jump on a call, but it affords some flexibility, too. I can look at my schedule and know when I can book myself out. I work for myself.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\nI don\u2019t consider it \u2018real writing.\u2019 But other people say, \u201cIt\u2019s real writing. You put words down every day.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nDo you have other big projects in the works?<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nThe Authenticity Experiment: Lessons from the Best and Worst Year of My Life<\/em> is coming out from Two Sylvias Press in September (2017). Then another project I\u2019m working on is probably narrative nonfiction\/memoir. I think it\u2019s going to be a hybrid book on Alzheimer\u2019s. I\u2019ve got an agent in New York now, which is great. I\u2019m finishing the book proposal for that, and then she\u2019ll shop that for me. And then I\u2019ll have to write it.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nThat\u2019s a story that\u2019s needed.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nThat story is needed, right? There are 65 million people right now that have Alzheimer\u2019s. We haven\u2019t even hit the peak of the baby boomers aging. It\u2019s a problem.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Judith died, my best friend died, and my mother died within a ten-month period, and I had to close my friend\u2019s estate and my mom\u2019s estate. I delivered three eulogies and closed two estates in ten months.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
TFR<\/em>: <\/strong><\/p>\nThat\u2019s life changing.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
De Gutes:<\/strong><\/p>\nRight? Objects<\/em> came out in June [2015]. Judith died two days after she finished the edit on the manuscript. So my book came out in June, my friend Stef died in January, and my mom died in August.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
The years 2015 and 2016 are just kind of lost years for me. I keep thinking, when did that book come out?<\/em> \u00a0It\u2019s just been a year since I won the Oregon Book Award, so the massive change in the last two years of my life has been huge. You know, it\u2019s both good and bad, which is why I started writing The Authenticity Experiment. <\/em>We have to stop thinking in the binary about everything.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
Life is messy and it\u2019s both things\u2014dark and light.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Both fiction and nonfiction are writing towards truth . . .<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":2966,"template":"","categories":[9,140],"tags":[6,359,753,754,755,756],"class_list":["post-2962","article","type-article","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-aquifer","category-interview","tag-aquifer-the-florida-review-online","tag-heidi-sell","tag-kate-carroll-de-gutes-interview","tag-memoir-writing","tag-objects-in-mirror-are-closer-than-they-appear","tag-the-authenticity-experiment-lessons-from-the-best-and-worst-year-of-my-life"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n
Interview: Kate Carroll de Gutes - The Florida Review<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/cah.ucf.edu\/floridareview\/article\/interview-kate-carroll-de-gutes\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Interview: Kate Carroll de Gutes - The Florida Review\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Both fiction and nonfiction are writing towards truth . . .\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/cah.ucf.edu\/floridareview\/article\/interview-kate-carroll-de-gutes\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"The Florida Review\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/cah.ucf.edu\/floridareview\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/43\/2018\/08\/de-Gutes-Kate-Carroll-horz.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"603\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"350\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"19 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/cah.ucf.edu\\\/floridareview\\\/article\\\/interview-kate-carroll-de-gutes\\\/\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/cah.ucf.edu\\\/floridareview\\\/article\\\/interview-kate-carroll-de-gutes\\\/\",\"name\":\"Interview: Kate Carroll de Gutes - 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